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Fox MUD  |  Fox MUD  |  Suggestions (Moderators: Victoria, Sygis)  |  'devote' -- memming healing spells « previous next »
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Sygis
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« on: February 18, 2009, 01:36:37 PM »

I've been kicking around an idea for a while now, including feedback and ideas here and there, about if we should let folks mem healing spells, and how we'd do that.

new command: devote (if needed -- or we might just stick with 'memorize' and let it do both, frankly)
syntax: ...just like mem, clear, clearmem commands (I'll let you read helps in game if interested)

You would be allowed to mem healing spells, but:
1. Wisdom Based: based on Wisdom, not Int (so high wisdom chars can mem more healing)
2. Fewer Slots: not as many mem slots as Int gives for blasting spells ... maybe ... half as many?
3. Blasting *or* Healing: you can mem healing, or blasting, but never both

(If you have healing spells memmed, have to cast or clear them before you can mem blasting spell(s), and vice versa.)

This allows folks to 'hang' spells (see the two Amber series for that reference) ahead of time, but they have to choose healing *or* blasting.  (We might want to let them also devote mems to buffing -- e.g. sanc, spell shield, etc.?)

Finally, I'd propose cleric primes get +1 extra devote/mem healing slot over other prime classes.  This isn't a big bonus, but it is bigger than with Int/blasting mems as there will be fewer Wis/healing mem slots.  (This could be right from level 1, or maybe we should offer this when they lord as a lording bonus?)

(Code just needs to see if spells memmed, then see whether blasting (baneful) or healing (beneficial), and then knows if it's checking Wis based or Int based slots, so we could just use 'mem' for both, frankly -- and I'm kind of in favor of expanding existing commands, instead of adding additional ones, generally.)

(And I'd suggest letting mage primes s have +1 blasting mem slot over other primes the same way we do for cleric primes and +1 healing mem slot, for symmetry.)

The downside is clerics get more powerful ... I've heard a Cl/Wa or Wa/Cl is among the most powerful char builds in many ways.  If so, yes, this just makes them more powerful.  But my experience is a MUD with a lot of healers is a more stable, happier MUD -- grouping is easier, raises more likely.

I've also noticed other chars get to twiddle their thumbs while mages mem.  This allows clerics to mem up somewhat along with the mages, if they want (and weren't memming blasting spells just because).  As for what Crintallo's doing (Wa/Th, no caster levels), well, he'll find ways to amuse himself, like always; as for other warrior or thief prime minimal casters, as long as they can mem something more effective than headbutt, they will -- and this allows them to mem a few healing (or buffing?) spells, increasing their options, as well (yes, if your cleric quad is healing the tank, something might be about to go wrong, I agree).

So, here's that suggestion, as bantered about in various less organized, less universally available forums from time to time.   Smiley  Please let us know what you think -- very intentionally posted in the mortal accessible suggestion forum, 'cause I hope to get honest feedback from anyone and everyone, positive and negative.  Thanks!!

- - -
Credit where credit is due:  Seems back on Fri Dec 10 '99, Windfyre posted the suggestion to allow *either* wis based healing mems *or* int based blasting mems -- I even responded to his post, but had since forgotten about it.  Thanks Windfyre!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 05:44:57 AM by Sygis » Logged
Sygis
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 06:50:49 AM »

Years ago, this idea was still circulating from the 1999 posts.  These were the responses to the older, less balanced version of the concept of memming healing spells (from 'mortal suggestion board' in game):

(Coder was a training character used by Dagda at that point in time, FYI.)

Quote
Message 170 : Mon Apr  1 '02 (Coder)      :: Re: memming nonblasting spells

Memming of cleric spells comes up again and agiin and gets shot down every time
with what probably is good reason. There are a couple of problems with memming
of cleric spells:

Firstly clerics can already mem blasting spells. I doubt they want this ability
   taken away, so even though in an ideal world clerics would mem the healing
   spells and mages the blasting spells it is probably too late to change over
   to this system now.

Secondly healing spells cost a lot more mana than blasting spells. This means
   that if you can mem them you get a higher effective mana pool. For example
   if you mem 12 soul chills you have 33*12 = 396 mana worth of mems, if you
   mem 12 balms you have 60*12 = 720 mana worth of mems. That is basically
   another 324 mana to play with during a fight which is a lot of power to be
   handing out.

Thirdly no matter how you look at it it is going to make players more flexible
   and therefore more powerful. Now how much more powerful I dont really know
   but we should be very careful not to give out that much more power lightly.

There are a couple of things we can do to alleviate some of these problems.

We can make each memmed healing spell take up two mem slots. this solves the
problem with giving players more mana to play with. Whether meming healing
spells depends on wisdom or intelligence would also have to be decided. If it
depends on wisdom then memming a mixture of spells would be problematic. Maybe
preventing a mix of healing and blasting spells in memory at once would be one
way to solve that. A better solution might be to have a mana limit on the
amount you can put in memory at once. After all shouldn't an archmagus be able
to mem a lot more dart arcanes than soul chills? It also solves the loophole
of memming a lot of spells when they are initially available at max mana to
get around the mana cost, and would open up the possiblity of items that can
increase your memory pool which might be cool. Another option is to make it
take twice as much mana to mem a healing spell but still allow the full quota
of mems. This would offset the increased power with increased preparation time.

Next I would suggest only allowing ma-cl and cl-ma to mem healing spells. They
are supposed to be the supreme casters, and for that they get poor hps and no
corresponding boosts. If we let them mem healing spells then at least they get
something to make them the foremost casters.

As for giving out this ability in a built in quest or through a quest item I
would tend to say no, if its through an item they you only have to find it
once for all your characters which is unbalancing. Also it is a very big quest
prize and unless that quest is very, very hard, with deaths etc and cannot be
a quest that people will learn and be able to run through. Even then I would
still say that this is too big a prize to give out.

In summation I would give a tentative agreement if:
1. Memming heal spells take 2 slots instead of one (or double mana cost to mem).
2. Memming heal spells was restricted to ma-cl and cl-ma initially.

I think this would be enough to allow for some active evaluation. It would get
memmed heal spells into the game by giving them to what would seem to be the
weakest physically of our classes, restore (promote?) ma-cl and cl-ma to being
our premium spell casters and prevent us from having to deal with this proposal
every six months like we do now.

Thanks,

Coder

Quote
Mon Apr  1 '02 (Coder)      :: more on mems

For what its worth I had been toying with the idea of a different mem idea
altogether. Where you can mem as much as you want but have to pay a mana upkeep
to keep your memory intact each tick. Something around 1/5th of the mana cost
of all the spells in your memory. If you don't have this mana, you lose some of
your memmed spells. So you could stack up on mems as long as you were going to
use them quickly or sustain a few over time relatively easily. Take for example
a mage who could mem 10 soul chills for 330 mana and would have to spend 66 mana
a tick to maintain these spells. If they wanted they could instead mem 20 soul
chills but then they would have to spend 132 mana per tick just to keep their
mems intact. Some sort of sliding scale would be in order probably, 1/10th of
first 100 mana, 2/10th of next 100, 3/10th of next 100 and so on. At that rate
the 10 mems would cost 10+20+30+12 = 72 mana a round upkeep with the 20 spells
taking 10+20+30+40+50+60+28 = 238 mana per tick. A nice idea is also would be
to have hps used instead of mana to sustain mems if the caster has no mana left,
I just like the image of a mage so brimming with magical power that he has to
unleash it before it consumes him entirely.

Thanks

Coder

Quote
Tue Apr  2 '02 (Fritzgrad)  :: Re: memorization of non-blasting spells...

I am against this, as it would allow for just a ridiculous amount of healing,
heck, this character, or one of similar caliber could do amazing things with
his more costly, heal spells memed, asopposed to the usually cheaper blasting
spells, and imagine what would happen if your Druid and Patriarch Cleric lords
could use this ability, quested for or not, even if it used two slots, etc,
I am against this...  Hell, I think the memming of spells is already a twinkish
and somewhat overpowered ability, and to add the possibility of memming heals
would just be absurd.

Note: This is my opinion, based on the "balance" theory.

Quote
Tue Apr  2 '02 (Smoke)      :: mem

wow, memming, one of my favorite parts of playing an elf archmage with 25 int.

I think it would kinda suck if we had to pay upkeep to keep the spells in our
mem's. I think it'd be a sweet idea to be able to mem healing spells and I
think the best way to do it would be to have a rare item that allowed you to
mem one healing spell and would then disiappear (disinigrate or whatever) but
I think it should take up the same amount of space (not overpowering and it
would get components into the game quicklike)  If it was as rare as poisonblade
then it wouldn't really affect game play that much (except maybe for a kill or
three) Anyway, you can already scribe balm et-all then just recite it off of
the scrolls.  I know it's not nearly as easy as being able to mem, but if one was
to really work at it, they could have a big bag full of balm spells to play with.
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Albion
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 05:31:19 AM »


Well I am on the thinking that this would be too overpowering.  The mana needed to mem healing vs blasing, there is a big gap.  I know you could restrict it to say half the mem slots or something but I am not sure that is the way to go.

Reading the other bits, I did notice one thing that I liked the idea of and that was Mages only being able to mem blasing spells and clerics only healing spells.  I think this would be cool and be great for grouping as you would have a need for a cleric and a need for a mage.  However the problem is that every one can mem not only C/M but what do we do then with T/W primes.

There is no doubt that the meming of spells is a hugh bonus, Warlock can do 15 i think it is.  15 soul chills is a lot of damage to be stored up and this then means he has all that extra mana for more blasting or healing.

If we were at pwipe stage I would be going for meming for only C/M types, or at least greatly reduced for W/T

Maybe I am being old fashioned here and do not want to rock the boat but we could and maybe are getting into a rythem where we are making the players bigger and better and so the mobs (older ones) are becoming less and less attractive to go after and only the new big mobs are being taken on.  This then leads the Imms to create bigger and harder mobs, so the circle goes on............................
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Victoria
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2009, 01:21:34 AM »

On the merits it seems like a good idea, but you're right in that it boosts the power level of the cleric build significantly. However, I do kind of like the direction we've been going with tanking clerics as a group dynamic.

I'd almost say memmed heals should only work in a group... whether the cleric is tanking or healing someone else. Would give a further incentive to team up (and all the benefits that more healers brings) while not increasing their soloing power.

How we'd actually enforce that is a somewhat more difficult question--maybe only if grouped and one or more group members present.
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Krush
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2009, 05:42:04 AM »

Well to be honest if the combined mana cost of the memmed spells is similar there is no real power gain here for soloing as you will generally be both blasting and healing, and on large mobs, using most all your mems and mana. In fact blasting mems would be more powerful on smaller mobs because you don't have to do much if any healing, making healing mems next to worthless.  The little mana you do use for healing will be regened will blasting from your mems. The only real benefit I see here is upgrading healing in groups which I think is probably not a bad idea.  You would also be able to mem healing spells for blasting undead; not overpowering I think.  Also this upgrades wisdom if heal mems are wis based which also isn't a bad idea because I believe intelligence based chars have the upper hand atm due the the fact that they get bonus mana and mems from the same stat.  Its easy not to worry as much about wis if your character is mage caster based whereas cleric type casters have to worry about both int and wis when assigning, rolling or training stats (there is only so much int gear for meming/pracing + there is the switchout spam).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 06:12:32 AM by Krush » Logged
Krush
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 07:46:39 AM »

Here's a combination system for heal mems that might work.

Character has a mem pool based on their race's highest of int or wis (15 at 25).
Memming a blasting spell subtracts one from pool, heals subtract two.
Max of 15 slots but only 14 can be used for healing because they take two.
Character can only mem total heals based on current wis (7 at 24)
Character can only mem total blasts based on current int (15 at 25)

So...

When a character mems a blasting spell subtract 2 from the available pool of mems for every heal already in mem.

When a character mems a healing spell subtract 1 from available pool for every blasting spell currently in mem.

Thus...

Elves could mem 13 blasting spells and  a heal or some other combination that doesn't exceed 5 heals.

Dwarves could mem 6 heals and a blasting spell etc.
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dizao
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 03:26:29 PM »

Here's my 2 cents.

Lets take a look at the typical solo fights that a quad 40 will experience.

1) They backstab the mob and it dies.
2) They backstab the mob and melee/blast it the rest of the way
3) They backstab or otherwise initiate against a mob and blast away until they need to flee.  Either because they ran out of mana or couldn't keep up with healing against it.

If given the choice to mem heals or blasting spells, it's not going to give much of an advantage either way under the proposed 2 slots per heal system.   Since the mana cost to fully mem your best spells will be roughly equivalent.  It can potentially add a little extra power depending on your gear/stat setups, since people who have higher wisdom than int could potentially have more mem slots then they would otherwise.  But in my opinion that isn't a really large increase in power.

Ultimately, for quad 40's, this change isn't going to increase their solo play effectiveness by any significant amount.  However, in grouping it'll allow the dedicated healer to keep heals up for that much longer during a fight, which in my opinion is a good thing anyways.

Now lets look at the benefits for new players or those who are leveling lower level characters.  For some builds, it is a huge boost, for others, barely noticeable until they're closer to quad 40.

War/Cl and Cl/War are powerful combinations when you get to quad40, but getting there can be a problem.  You don't have any kind of good blasting power and are forced to rely on physical hits, which means you aren't parrying as much, which means you're losing more hitpoints.  One of the biggest factors/annoyances in any kind of online game is downtime, and at lower levels, there is a lot of it.  Healing spells are severly underpowered until Cure Dire Wounds at the earliest, and it's really not until Heal at level 24 that you have a spell that gives you a decent amount of healing power for your manacost.  At least by giving this ability to class combinations that place Cleric in a higher ranking than Mage, you can have a few additional heals to fuel your hitpoints so you can bash for that much longer, and take greater advantage of regen rooms.

War/thf and Thf/war aren't likely to see any real benefit until they're closer to quad 40, primarily due to the fact that low level healing spells suck, and both these combinations would next to no mana anyways.  Once they did get to quad 40 though, they'd probably see the largest boost from the healing mem slots.  Although anything with Thf prime is going to have a much easier time then Warrior prime in my opinion.

As a mage/war I probably wouldn't have used my mems on healing spells either, mainly because I usually got to the point where my mana and hp were so low I had to rest them both back up at the same time anyways.

M/C and C/M could be a toss up, probably a matter of playstyle and could be changed depending on hunting areas.

Ultimately, I find it hard to believe that this type of change would add a great deal of extra 'power' to a character as an individual, just more versatility that could make things easier in the leveling up process.  And frankly, with our low player base, things need to be made easier for the lower level characters in order to keep people around when they wander in.
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 06:29:39 PM »

I agree with the general sentiment that this would not overpower anybody.  It does add a bit of extra utility because when I am tanking and I know I won't have time to blast I can just mem heals.  It also gives options to prime or second clerics and makes their lower end a little less tedious. 
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